One: Double Moon

Interviewing Selves: I'm so pleased to be sitting here with you today. We've been following your work and some of the books that you've published and it just seemed like a natural fit to reach out. Thanks for taking the time.

India Ballinger: Yes, you're welcome. I’m here with my successfully cloned dog, so, let’s see how this goes.

IS: Great. Let's start right there. Tell me about this cloned dog. Tell me everything.

IB: So when I was younger, around 10, I had this dream that I cloned my dog, Moon Bagel. I saw this video about someone who did it and it didn't look that hard. So I thought: Well, why can't I do that? It's probably gonna cost a lot of money. But if I still have the same dog? Great.

IS: Do you notice any differences between this version of Moon Bagel and the prior version?

IB: The prior version of Moon Bagel had pretty much the same personality. I feel like she's a little more skittish than she used to be; a little more afraid than the prior Moon Bagel. She has different fears. But besides that, they pretty much successfully cloned her.

IS: Did Moon Bagel come to Paris with you? Because I know you were living for seven or eight years in Europe and you're just newly back in Los Angeles. Is that correct?

IB: It's was about six years. But, yes, I actually got her cloned in Amsterdam and then I took her to Paris with me.

IS:  Right on. Before we dive into Europe, I want to go even further back and talk about New Orleans. What brought you there in the first place?

IB: My mom told me when I was younger that there was this great college in New Orleans that focused a lot on the arts, like photography and writing. I was like, well, I'm probably gonna go there because I like writing and it's fun to make stories.

IS:  So you knew even from a fairly young age that you were a storyteller?

IB: Mmm hmm.

IS: Tell me about your college experience there. What did you study? 

IB: I majored in photography. I also did a little bit of writing. At the time in college, I just was really interested in film because my dad did it. And he told me a lot about when he went to college to do film and how that was really exciting for him. I was like: “Hey, why don't I be like my parents, you know, go to college in New Orleans.” And so that's what I did.

IS:  What I’ve learned about creative people, is that oftentimes what they end up studying at one point in their life doesn't necessarily end up being what they end up focusing on. So much can change. And I think that that's what interests me so much about your story. There's a fearlessness about travel and change and doing all these different creative projects. And I really admire that. 

IB: [nods]

IS: When does your friend and writing partner, Julia, enter the picture? I know she's been a really important part of your life.

IB: Julia plays a part because she went to high school in Paris, so she knew a lot about it. I used to visit her when I was in high school and it was amazing. Going to visit her I had some of the best times of my life. I knew that once I was finished with college, I was going to go live with her. 

When I first left New Orleans, I lived in Amsterdam for four years. But Julia was like: I'll come live with you for three of those years. We lived together total five years. It was fun having that one year in Amsterdam by myself. I got to really explore. But then when she was there, we had more of a schedule and it was a little more organized. We were also still partying.

IS:  Of course.

IB: Then by the fourth year of living in Amsterdam, she wanted to go back to Paris, and so we went there.

IS: Why Amsterdam? What is it about that city that brought you there and made you stay?

IB: Probably my grandmother. She's Dutch. So she told me about cheese, and Schweitzer, which is a Dutch dish. When I was 10 years old, I visited and saw the culture and just how alive it was, and the food was delicious. I knew that when I was older, I would definitely want to go there for a wild experience.

IS: I know being on a bicycle was a big part of that for you. What was it like that first year when you were exploring the city on your bike?

 IB: It was mostly looking at landmarks and getting to explore the food and really dig into the culture and starting my life. Like finding an apartment. It was mostly just tactical and kind of loose. But then once Julia came I felt more like: okay, now I have a dog at home, I’ve got to actually think. That one year, I had no dog and I was just more free. But then, once Julia came - she's very organized. Unlike me, she literally keeps everything organized. Mine is in a pile of junk. 

IS:  Which I think is an important part of some good friendships and relationships—that you balance each other well. You described how she keeps you organized, but what do you bring to Julia that she doesn't have as much?

IB: I bring looseness. She's very uptight. She will literally just binge watch something. Usually doesn't take time for herself. I definitely take time for myself. It’s one of my things. So I kind of bring the looseness, and I bring the creativity of like: “Hey, there's an event going on! Let's go there!” And she’ll be like: she didn't even look at the event. 

IS:  So you’d consider yourself more spontaneous?

IB: Yes. So, it was probably a Friday or something, a day where you go out, and it was a beautiful sunny day. Julia just wanted to stay inside and binge Stranger Things. I don't know why because it was such an old show. I hadn't seen that since I was eleven. So, I was like: “It's sunny outside! Let’s go outside!” And she's just a couch potato. So I dragged her outside and I was like: “Hey, I’ve wanted to clone my dog for a while”. And she was like: “You're crazy!” And so I told her that I could do whatever I want because I had money. And so we went to a cloning place where this scientist just cloned my dog, Moon. Julia thought I was insane wasting money, but I thought it was the best thing ever.

IS:  It's clearly proved to be a great decision.

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Two: Balancing Julia

IS: I know that you and Julia are writing partners and write together, and that you also each have your own separate writing careers as well. This sense of balance in your friendship: how did that manifest in your writing relationship when you were working on your book, “Dark Self,” together?

IB: Working on the book, it really helped. She has a very fictional outlook to everything, more like a children's book. I bring more realistic outcomes. Still kind of fantasy, but more realistic and more serious outcomes than hers. So she brings the light and happy, and I bring the dark and sad and the truth. I think that's why it's pretty easy to live with her. She's very optimistic, unlike me. So we just balance each other out, and I think that's why I could put up with her for five years.

IS:  It makes total sense. Can you give an overview of “Dark Self”?  

IB: Sure. There's this girl and she goes on a trip to Rome. She loves to travel. She's very optimistic, spontaneous and is always just out there. But then — and here’s the fiction coming  — she meets a version of herself that’s completely the opposite. So she meets literally the same person, parents, everything identical to her, down to how her voice sounds. But this person is dark and sad and never feels happy. So she’s really confused. She sees this totally different version of herself. And this version of herself doesn't talk to her. It just sits there next to her and cries and nobody else sees it. She named the girl Rosa. 

For example, one time in the book when she was in line for food, she pointed to her and asked the cashier: “Don't you see Rosa?” The cashier was very confused, thinking: She's not okay. So she goes to a mental facility. She’s checked, everything's fine. There is nothing wrong. So then, she heads back home from Rome and Rosa disappears. She's just gone. Now this girl is really confused and realizes she misses Rosa. So she goes back to Rome to see if she's there, and Rosa has gone completely. And that's pretty much the book. That’s a preview.

IS:  Wow. Do you feel that you and Julia were sort of exploring some of your own parts of your lives through writing that book together?

IB: There's one thing about our book writing that's not as fun, which is that sometimes we have a hard time agreeing what it’s about, ‘cause Julia’s fictional and I'm the opposite. So sometimes she gets mad because she bases all of her writing off a children's book. She'll want to write a story about a girl and it’s a little more basic - not as advanced as me. I like writing adult, where it's a more serious outcome. It balances but also sometimes it's hard to write with her because we have such different ideas.

IS:  That makes sense, and is probably why it's important that you and she both have your own writing careers and your own practices? I want to hear more about some of the writing that you explored when you weren't working with Julia.

IB: My book,“Returning to Leave,” is about this guy living in Austria in the 1940s. So of course Hitler was around and this Austrian boy was terrified of him; the uprising of him. So this boy runs to Siberia thinking he'll be safe there. No one's there. It's freezing. And he meets this old woman in her 80s. Like, barely clinging on to life. And this old woman doesn't speak much. He doesn't speak her language because he's from Austria. So this old woman just follows him around. And he follows her. And they just keep following each other. And then one day, she's gone. And he goes to her address. She's not there (It’s a very similar outcome [to “Dark Self”] - how Rosa just disappeared. It was mostly my idea). He asked the mayor, he asked everyone who lived in her building, he went to the hospital. There were no trains leaving that day. Nothing. She was just gone. 

So he is still on the lookout for her and decides to go all over. He heads to Finland and that's when he realizes that he's in love with the school there because the kids seem so happy. The school is so good, they have a lot of recess, and he watches as the kids’ faces glow up as they go back inside from recess. And so he decides to become a teacher there and develop a whole new life. He was amazed at how their grades skyrocketed compared to where he was in Austria.

Then one of his neighbors, from where he lived in Siberia trying to find the old frail woman, finds her! They find her body buried under stone. Nothing’s happened to it, no damages. They send it to a hospital. Nothing. They all thought she just died of old age. But he’s still a teacher in Finland so he stays there. One night, he has this crazy dream where he sees the ghost of the old woman in his dream! Well, he was dreaming but he didn't know it. So in this dream he sees the ghost of the old woman, but she looks a little different. Her face is a little deformed. So he walks up to her and taps her on the shoulder, and she doesn't turn around. Like, in the beginning of the book when he didn't exist to her and she didn't exist to him. He follows this ghost around, going crazy, thinking he found the old woman who came to him, thinking she had come back to life, to visit him. So he's following this ghost and spent his whole day in the dream, following this old woman around.

Then one day, he wakes up. And at this point, it was 25 days of him dreaming, just following this old woman while he was sleeping. And he was still alive! One day, he just woke up, and he thinks that someone kidnapped him, but he's just in his own bed. He's so confused. He's freaking out. So he goes to get checked mentally, like the girl Rosa, and they find that somehow, he’s like literally almost dying. He's low on food, low on water, having a hard time breathing. But he feels fine! But the doctors are freaking out. And they're confused. They’re like: Literally, you’re about to die if you don't eat or something. And he refuses to eat and he's not hungry. And then … duh duh duh! He just freezes and he passes out. He goes back to the dream  where he sees the old woman he keeps following her around. But this time, he wakes up after two hours, then he walks straight out of the hospital onto the street. He walks so far, that he’s just out in the middle of the snow. There was no civilization. He was just sitting there in the snow. And this time, he didn't fall asleep like in a dream. He thought he was hallucinating that he saw the old woman and then… he just blacks out.

IS:  Wow. I have so many questions. There's a theme throughout your writing of these…

IB: Illusions.

IS: These illusions! These ghosts, these figures that come into our lives. Is there anything in your own life that informs that? That inspires that? Have you had any experiences with ghosts or people mysteriously coming into your life?

IB: It’s not based off my life. I think my writing is based off of how you picture yourself inside, but you don't show it.

IS: Mmmm. Beautiful.

IB: That girl that followed Rosa, she is the reflection of how Rosa feels on the inside. But she thinks she's this optimistic girl when she's actually like, breaking. She doesn't notice. So when Rosa comes, she is like her reflection.

IS: Yes. Wow. 

IB: And the old woman [represents] how he's so curious and how he’ll just waste time. And following this old woman is important, and how he's committed, and how he's afraid. 

IS: Why is he so drawn to her? He's all at once afraid and wants to follow her?

IB: The reason that he's drawn to her because of his family. My backstory of it is that his grandma died when he was really young. The Siberian woman he thinks is his grandma, even though he never knew her. He pictures her. He thinks it's her. He saw a picture of her a long time ago when he was a little boy. He kind of morphed this old woman's face into hers, and so he just follows her around.

IS: So is he trying to get in touch with his family roots? 

IB: Yeah, because the boy didn't have a great family background. His dad was very standoffish about his family. His mom was abandoned by hers, and so the only person he ever knew about was his grandma. I think he was looking for answers.

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Three: The Abandoned Plant Sanctuary

IS: We've talked a lot about work and about what you've accomplished. I want to hear more about the richness of your life in Amsterdam. You lived in an abandoned plant sanctuary.

IB: Yes. It was kind of a greenhouse and it used to be owned by this very rich man. He was starting a zoo and he also wanted to start a plant sanctuary. This plant sanctuary was built in the 1920s. He wanted to be the first ever zoo that had a plant sanctuary. People would line up to see his exotic plants. 

IS: I see.

IB: So he was really influential in getting us to realize the value of plants. He wanted to make this giant sanctuary, but then he got bank robbed and so it was abandoned. But people in the early 90s fixed it up a little bit, tossed together a little bit more, made it more efficient. 

So when I first moved to Amsterdam, I didn't want some new modern house or apartment. I wanted to find something that actually had character. So I looked at old abandoned apartment buildings. And since this was just an empty building in not that great condition, it was really cheap, and someone rented it out. I went there the first day and the light was amazing — there was so much light shining through. And I was like: This would be perfect! It had the pipes running water to the plants and a sink in the kitchen.

IS: When the people restored it in the 90s, did they start to repopulate it with plants? Or was it mostly empty?

IB: It was mostly empty. On one floor, they kept most of the plants. That's the floor that I rented because it had the best lighting. But throughout the building, there were not as many as you would expect. It had a couple of ferns here and there but that one room that I rented had the most beautiful lighting and it had everything from ferns to fuchsias to bonsai trees — beautiful plants.

IS: What a dream! 

What was your community like while you were living there? I want to hear more about how you and Julia moved about the city, who your friends were. Paint a picture for me of what your daily life was.

IB: So, I would wake up around 9am and do writing for an hour just throwing out ideas, trying to put together a story. Then I’d try to convince Julia to do a collaboration. After that I'd paint usually. I love painting. So I would paint with her. Watercolors are my favorite. Then I'd go to the park down the street. It was this beautiful park with these trees with very thick trunks and they’d get thinner as it goes to the top, and the roots would hang from the trees, so I thought it was beautiful. Stunning. And I would go there every day. And just look at the plants, climb the trees.

After I'd go to the park, I’d probably hang out with my friends. We'd have a picnic. We’d go to a bar. We’d just just live that crazy experience. Oh, my favorite thing was probably trying new food. My friends had all lived there since they were kids. They knew every place. Just hanging out with them was so fun. 

IS: That sounds like such a lush life.

The move to Paris: I know it was something that Julia was pushing for, but how did you feel about it and what ultimately allowed you to make that move? 

IB: After being in Amsterdam for four years, it was a lot. I kind of got bored. When I went to Paris as a kid, I was really interested in it but I didn't have as much time. And visiting Julia there was also really fun. So I wanted to go back there with her and you know, live it out a little bit more. So when we moved, she was all aboard. She was trying to convince me for years. So I was like: Fine, let’s just do it. No experience. So we hopped on a plane to Paris, and it was a little hard to bring Moon Bagel with me. They (the airlines) were a little confused because her name was Moon Bagel and she was cloned.

IS: I would imagine going to Paris after Julia had lived there made it easier because she knew the places to live and eat and…

IB: Yeah, she had a great apartment set up there. It was this beautiful apartment; kind of newer, but still beautiful. Made of brick, had this nice balcony — it was pretty much our living room because the apartment was pretty small compared to the one in Amsterdam.

IS: What changed when you moved from Amsterdam to Paris? Did you bicycle as much? Were you still painting? Did you spend your time any differently?

IB: When I moved to Paris, it was a little less biking. Julia knew everything. Most places weren’t biking distance, so I definitely didn’t bike as much. I actually painted more when I moved there. Just because of the landmarks - the Eiffel Tower. And the cheese! I definitely got to explore different types of cheeses.

IS: And what ultimately brought you back to Los Angeles after this long, rich time in Europe?

IB: Probably my dad. You know, I just wanted to hang out with him a little more. Now he's in his 60s. Coming back from Europe it's a nice little refreshing break, you know? Even though it's a little crazier. It's California. I don’t really know how to explain it.

IS: I can see how it would be a refreshing change from a European lifestyle. Is there anything else that you would want our readers to know about? Your life, your creativity? A message for the future?

IB: A message for the future that I’d give to them is that if someone tells you you're crazy to clone your dog, do it anyways. 

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